Hello all you gurus of sound.
I have a questions you all might be able to help me with.
I am a DJ who also puts on small events (less than 200 people usually). I have an old system which I am planning to upgrade and wanted to know what the best next step would be.
Here is what I have:
2 JBL SF25 cabs powered by 1 QSC 1450 amp
2 JBL JRX118S subs powered by 1 QSC 2450 amp
The problem is one of my subs died and needs repair. However I have noticed that I don't feel the subs were adequate anyway and was thinking of selling off the non-broken sub and getting a pair of new subs as my first upgrade to the system (the cabs will probably come next).
If I sell the subs, then I can keep the QSC 2450 to power at least one new sub or just start from scratch and get new amps and subs.
Does anyone have any good advice on somewhat budget subs which give good power for electronic dance music.
I was looking at the dual 15 TurboSounds, the Mackie 18's, the upgraded JBLs, the EAWs.
I have about 3K I can invest, but I obviously would like to spend much less if possible.
The other option is to just spend the couple hundred dollars to fix the old sub and deal with upgrading at some later time when I have more money.
Any suggestions.
Also, a seemingly unrelated question. I have a dbx 3 way crossover. Can someone give me some advice on the crossover setting that is ideal for my setup. I am somewhat new to configuring soundsystems and I could use all the advice I can get.
Thank you so much for your time.
Much love and sounds,
~Brian
I have a questions you all might be able to help me with.
I am a DJ who also puts on small events (less than 200 people usually). I have an old system which I am planning to upgrade and wanted to know what the best next step would be.
Here is what I have:
2 JBL SF25 cabs powered by 1 QSC 1450 amp
2 JBL JRX118S subs powered by 1 QSC 2450 amp
The problem is one of my subs died and needs repair. However I have noticed that I don't feel the subs were adequate anyway and was thinking of selling off the non-broken sub and getting a pair of new subs as my first upgrade to the system (the cabs will probably come next).
If I sell the subs, then I can keep the QSC 2450 to power at least one new sub or just start from scratch and get new amps and subs.
Does anyone have any good advice on somewhat budget subs which give good power for electronic dance music.
I was looking at the dual 15 TurboSounds, the Mackie 18's, the upgraded JBLs, the EAWs.
I have about 3K I can invest, but I obviously would like to spend much less if possible.
The other option is to just spend the couple hundred dollars to fix the old sub and deal with upgrading at some later time when I have more money.
Any suggestions.
Also, a seemingly unrelated question. I have a dbx 3 way crossover. Can someone give me some advice on the crossover setting that is ideal for my setup. I am somewhat new to configuring soundsystems and I could use all the advice I can get.
Thank you so much for your time.
Much love and sounds,
~Brian
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SF Bay Area
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Re: Some SoundSystem Questions
Fri, April 13, 2007 - 11:49 AMWell man I don't know what kind of DBX crossover you have but I am guessing it is an older analog one, but those jbl boxes you are using have an internal crossover in them anyway, so if you want to use that DBX in your system all you are really worring about is your subs at this point.
Since you said your subs are a little road worn I would set your hipass filter from around 300 Htz to 50 Htz anything more than that will just garble in an older dirver. And the specs for your subs say they only really like playing down to 55Htz or so anyway , but when you get something with a little more ass behind it you can broaden the filter from 250Htz to 25 Htz or so...
All your doing man is telling the subs to narrow down what they reproduce... and weed out that full range crap that they don't like. Everyone raves that the passive crossovers in you boxes are just fine , but when you take it into your own hands you just get way more control over your system.
As for new subs, if you are using your subs as speaker stands then just get you some newer single 18" subs that can take more power. I would try to get you a dual 18" JBL from somewhere. Every club that I have ever worked in with a couple of those in there could shake the panties of a drunk chick at 50 yards...
Hope that helped a little man ...good luck
-Palmer -
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Re: Some SoundSystem Questions
Fri, April 13, 2007 - 12:19 PMThanks Palmer. I will adjust my crossover accordingly.
I was looking at the dual 18s from JBL. The good thing about those is that in the future I can add another one once I upgrade my cabs. My only concern is that I will have to get a bigger amp to power that box which will end up costing me another grand at least.
I am open to more suggestions. I am thinking now that I will repair the sub that is fucked and use it in combo with a newer sub such as the dual JBL 18.
There are just so many options and combonations of sound setups that I am tangling myself in a web of possibilities.
Any other advice?
Thanks a bunch. -
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Re: Some SoundSystem Questions
Fri, April 13, 2007 - 1:49 PMIf I were you, and had $3k, this is what I'd do.
1. Buy two Mackie SWA1801 or two QSC HPR181 powered subs. About $1,100 to $1,300 each, but you may be able to get a deal on them. Try World of Stereo on Market.
2. Use the QSC 2450 to power your JBL tops. Gives you more power on them and therefore more punch from their 15's. The 2450 is 500w RMS and your JBLs are rated to 500w. Good Match :)
3. If you don't already have one, get a 15 band or 31 band EQ, like the DBX 215 or 231 or 1231. It's like $150 - $200. This will give you better control of the main sound (gotta trim the highs when the volume goes up) and allows you to properly boost the gain out of the DJ mixer into the amps. Meaning you can run the mixer in the green/yellow (clean signal) and boost the signal at the EQ. As opposed to running the red (dirty signal) like many DJs do.
4. What to do with your other JBL subs and QSC 1450? Those subs are only rated at 350 watts RMS. Compare that to the Mackie 1801 which are rated at 900 watts RMS. Huge difference. And it may be that the 2450's 500w RMS simply blew the sub out. So I don't think your JBLs are designed to kick much. Having said that, you can still add them to the system and have them powered by the QSC 1450.. More subs generally means more bass.
Additional.
Most people set up the speakers with the mains on top of the subs, which is fine. But what you may not know is that if you put the subs paired together in the middle you actually get more output. Almost double. I did this a few months ago with a couple Mackie 1801s and peeps couldn't believe how much more power was coming out. Way more bump than when they're separated. The only problem is that you'll then need to get a couple of tables or boxes to put the tops on to get them above people's heads. -
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Re: Some SoundSystem Questions
Fri, April 13, 2007 - 2:11 PMThanks Jay.
That sounds like some good advice. I don't have an EQ but will probably use this upgrade opportunity to throw it in the mix.
Switching the 2450 to the cabs is something I haven't thought about, but I will try it out.
I did a quick craigslist search and saw someone selling a pair of Mackie SWA1501s for $1500. Are the 1801's significantly stronger to pay almost double to get them?
Also, I only have a 2 way crossover, with only 2 outputs for the subs. Do I also need to get a different crossover so that I can run 4 subs or can I bypass that somehow by daisy chaining subs? The problem I see is that the Mackies are powered and the JBLs are passive which seems to make daisy chaining impossible.
Also, I will try putting the subs together in the middle instead of as stands for the cabs. You are making a lot of sense here.
Thanks for the lessons and input. I have learned so much more already. -
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Re: Some SoundSystem Questions
Fri, April 13, 2007 - 2:21 PMAlso, has anyone used the dbx driverack PA management systems? Its probably more than I need, but they are relatively inexpensive and contain EQ, compressors, 3-way crossover, limiter, etc. It seems it will protect the speakers better and it has settings to automatically adjust EQ levels for each room. -
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Re: Some SoundSystem Questions
Fri, April 13, 2007 - 3:14 PMI've used the driverack and I personally don't like it. don't get me wrong, it works and has a lot built into one little rack unit. but i prefer analog controls to digital. it's much easier to twist a dial or move a slider than to scroll through menus trying to make minor adjustments. also, i tend to trust my own ears with respect to EQ'ing as opposed to some piece of digital gear doing it "automatically". systems need babysitting.
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Re: Some SoundSystem Questions
Fri, April 13, 2007 - 3:06 PMyo, no problem :)
>>I did a quick craigslist search and saw someone selling a pair of Mackie SWA1501s for $1500. Are the 1801's significantly stronger to pay almost double to get them?
1801 = 18" driver with 900 watts
1501 = 15" driver with 500 watts
so my answer would be yes, it's worth paying more for the 1801s. my guess is the 1501s would be comparable to your current setup. maybe a bit more powerful, but not significantly. better to have a little more power than you need and have some headroom than max the system out. btw, i've run systems with the 1801s a lot and we're regularly hitting the limit on them when pushing full volume. people always want more bass :) the 1501s just wouldn't cut for us.
also, heat is a big issue with any system. the cooler you can keep the amps the better they'll run. so we'll set up fans on the makcie's heat sinks to keep them cool. this is really important with indoor parties as the room's ambient temp gets HOT and thus heats up the equipment.
>>>Also, I only have a 2 way crossover, with only 2 outputs for the subs. Do I also need to get a different crossover so that I can run 4 subs or can I bypass that somehow by daisy chaining subs? The problem I see is that the Mackies are powered and the JBLs are passive which seems to make daisy chaining impossible.
not impossible. ok, I'm 99% sure on this, but we had a similar multiple sub issue at burning man last year. I believe the QSC's XLR and 1/4" inputs are wired in parallel (the manual states this to be true). this effectively gives you a thru signal from whichever isn't the actual in. So if the XLR is the "in", then the 1/4" carries the signal thru, or vice versa. so you run like this.....
CROSSOVER ---XLR---> QSC 1450 ---1/4" to XLR---> 1801
NOTE: do not set the jumper to "parallel". this is a different setup where if you wanted send one signal into the CH1 input that's then have that one signal sent to both CH1 and CH2. Then the CH2 input effectively becomes a thru output.
Another option for combining multiple systems is to get a splitter www.zzounds.com/item--BEHMX882 but I don't think that's necessary in your case. -
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Re: Some SoundSystem Questions
Fri, April 13, 2007 - 3:29 PMThanks Jay.
You have been incredibly helpful.
You don't want to buy a pair of JBL subs do you? Just kidding... :)
Anyway, I am going to shop around for some powered subs, switch my amps, probably spend more money than I can afford, and be very pleased in the end with the increase of bass.
Also, thanks for the fans on the amps tip. I know how hot indoor events get and I have never thought to try cooling my amps.
I look for hours on the internet and found close to nothing in response to my questions. I post it on tribe and have all of my questions answered in a morning. I love it.
Thanks for the help. -
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Re: Some SoundSystem Questions
Sun, April 15, 2007 - 10:14 PMI, for one, can vouch for DSP units vs. analog ones.
The amount of control and tuning available to you is worth the lack of physical knobs and dials to touch. I personally use a Rane RPM-26z on my rig - it has drag and drop processing - compressors, limiters, graphic or parametric eq's, delays, AGC's, mixers...whatever.
The control that I can have over every aspect of my system is worth the extra $. I can even attach a WAP and monitor and control everything wirelessly.
If you can afford it, go for it.
Also, a big + for the QSC HPR stuff. Good, clean boxes they are.
-SK
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Re: Some SoundSystem Questions
Tue, April 17, 2007 - 5:32 PMMy advice for events that small.
Ditch the amp and the old speakers, and go self powered.
Two Mackie SRM 450's, and a a Mackie SWA 1501, will cost you under $3k.
It will also sound much better than your current system, will be plenty loud, and the time alone that you will save from having to set up and maintain an amp at gigs, will make it worth it alone.
I always recommend going self powered for small events. It's only events where you need so much sound that there's no way just one power strip or outlet will power the amount of sound that you would need, that I would recommend doing anything with an amp. I've been self powered, and will never go back (I do alot of events in the 100-150 range, never turning my speakers up more than 50%). -
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Re: Some SoundSystem Questions
Wed, April 18, 2007 - 10:46 AMI have lost my love for mackie.
I think after an hour or two they start to heat up AND
that funky horn on the 450 starts become sonically apparent.
And the mackie stops sound ing like a studio monitor.
The JBL eon , while it initially does not sound good is a workhorse, remains consistent,
and has more authentic bass.
EV has some good offerings, thier 15" self powered sub sounds a lot better than the mackie and has more bass.
You get more speaker from the yorkville company for the same money.
the weird thing about the mackies is they have a cieling for loudness. Every speaker has a ceiling, obviously, it is just that the
mackies ceiling start s at 75% of it s volume. Meaning it gets just so loud and doesnt go any louder.
I think you should check into professional speakers, real ones. If you dont have the money then, peavey makes a nice double 18
for under 900$ the qr series I think.
EV is importing the Dynachord series, a very pricey but very tiny all in one system.
QV2 has a similar set of all in ones.
The best advice I can give you is to get pro box's that you can mate with your favorite local sound company.
Get a couple EAW's or L'acoustics, My favorite is the Nexo series.
Get enough to have more speakers/amps than you need. This way you are never overdriving your system and it will last till the next "new trend" in speakers comes along.
The reason to get something like another sound company is so that you can sub rent from and to each other.
Sound systems are so expensive that you want to only buy enough to cover the bulk of your gigs and sub rent when and where possible., this will keep your credit cards open for other stupid purchases and keep room in the garage for said stupid purchases like a jet ski or atv
or recording studio.
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Re: Some SoundSystem Questions
Wed, April 18, 2007 - 10:49 AMI agree with you Aaron, however, I have perfectly fine cabs that I see no reason to ditch just for the self powered element. It will cost me more money to sell all my used equipment than to just upgrade one part at a time. The part I am working on now, with the money I have, is the subs.
So far, I sold my small amp and two subs and used to the money to buy one Mackie SWA 1801z and a 15 band EQ. The improvement is ridiculous. At some point I will probably sell off the passive cabs and get some powered ones, but for now, the 500 W passive JBLs sound great even with only one Mackie sub. My next step will probably be to get another 1801 and then upgrade the cabs in the future once the subs are taken care of and I replenish my funds.
BTW, while looking at subs, I got to check out the new JBL powered cabs and subs. These things are slick. Its not that they sound significantly better than any other powered units, but they sure do look nice. If you haven't seen them, check 'em out...
jblpro.com/products/portablesound/prx/
Again, thank you all for your input and advice. I really have learned much and hope to learn more from you all in the future.
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